I wrote this as a reply to a LiveJournal post a friend made, but it was too long so it wouldn’t let me post it.
Myself, I’ve started to break away from Christianity for several reasons. First off, I can’t stand most churches. I don’t like having other people presuming to tell me what to think or how to think. A vast majority of churches attempt to do just that, using fear of the unknown and direct or indirect threats (if you don’t join us, you will burn in a fiery pit for all eternity). They exploit the human need to be part of a group. And while the agenda they’re pushing is based on good stuff, it’s been perverted and twisted over the past two thousand years and used to control people, push political agendas, and even direct them to do some really terrible things to other human beings. Now one might say that churches are faulty but the Bible is perfect, the infallible Word Of God as is often said. The Bible is an interesting set of writings; it’s full of stories about human experience, parables about life and its meaning, and it does has some insights into humanity, like any book that’s good enough for people to pass down for a long time. But it’s overflowing with contradictions and myths, stories told and retold through generations of different people before being written down, jaded by the perceptions of hundreds of unknown writers, and translated through two or three languages (hint: Jesus didn’t speak Greek or Latin or English.) And it’s not even complete; some council of guys way back in the fourth century decided to cull some of the accounts, deciding what was and was not part of the “real Bible”, so to speak. A good start, maybe, if you were to sift through and remove some of the other blatant bullshit and the stuff that’s outright counterfactual, but nobody seems to be able to even agree on what to keep and what to discard. Keeping of slaves? Stoning of adulterers? Shunning women on their period? Genocide? Sure, we’ll keep the passages that condone those acts, but oh dear we have to remove the letters of people who thought that maybe Jesus wasn’t divine, but was in fact just an extraordinary human being. In short, it’s far from a perfect book. Sure, there’s wisdom there, if you analyze and think, and ostensibly many churches encourage that. Just be careful, because if that analysis leads you to unorthodox conclusions and you decide to tell others about it, you’ll be ostracized from the group, excommunicated, and/or go to hell. So really, you can think about it, as long as you think the same way they do. (Much like the fabled quote by Henry Ford about the Model A: “You can have any color as long as it’s black”.) Can you reconcile yourself with a group like this? I certainly can’t.
My response to organized Christianity’s idea of God is a sort of inverse Pascal’s wager. Pascal reasoned that he should believe in God, because if said deity existed then that belief would get him into heaven, and if said deity didn’t exist then it wouldn’t matter anyway. From my point of view, I don’t profess a belief in God partially because I wouldn’t want to spend the rest of eternity with someone who sends people to fiery pits for not believing in his existence (despite said people not being given a single shred of direct evidence). Think about that: a God who sends people to hell for using the logic and reasoning capacity they were born with. The idea is absurd. If God exists, and he does indeed send people to hell, I’d hope he’d do so based on more important criteria, like whether I spent my life hurting other people or helping other people. Maybe faith in a higher power helps some people treat others well, and if so then good for them. I don’t think a huge church helps. Either way, when I abandon the church and think for myself, it grants me the freedom and responsibility to make my own choices rather than depending on other people to tell me what to do.
Why do I care? Organized religion short-circuits that part of your brain that tells you to reason and cogitate before you do, say, or think something, and replaces it with an automated standard response given by a religious leader or group of leaders. For example, try to have an intelligent discussion with someone about stem-cell research these days, or evolution. With most people, it’s like the rational part of their brain just shuts off and they spit back some line about the sanctity of life or how God created everything, whether it’s relevant or not. Some of them will distort facts or simply ignore them, often without consciously realizing it. When I point this out, they see it as a personal attack. That’s why organized religion is so dangerous: it trains people to abandon reason.
So where does that leave us? I haven’t yet found a church that doesn’t try to tell me how to think, the Bible isn’t perfect, and I have personal issues with the existence of God that I won’t bring up here. Therefore, I find it simpler to start from scratch and work from there. By scratch I mean I start with observable facts and logic, re-analyze my own personal experiences and observations with a critical eye (after all, my own observations are colored by my own perspective), and only accept what reasonably fits. That’s the only way I got that monkey off my back. It doesn’t help the emptiness though, that’s another story. I find that doing nice things for other people helps, and meeting new people and exploring the world helps a little bit too.
From my perspective, after I peeled back all the BS and twisted logic I’d been fed all through grade school and high school, I wasn’t left with much. So I had to ask myself, even if the church is wrong, even if we live in this enormous scary universe and there’s no Big Guy in the Sky helping us out, is it still worth anything? Does it still mean anything? It’s a scary question, and not one that anyone could fully communicate the answer to in a short time, even if they knew it. And I’m still thinking about it.
Amen to everything you said! I’ve always felt that church and religion were just things that man made up to enforce the rules of morality, but over time things got so twisted and contorted…and views of morality have changed as well. Not understanding how or why a women would bleed every month, well naturally it was evil! :-p I find that just about everything that I was raised to believe in conflicts with the laws of nature and science, and I think that stems from man’s earlier misunderstanding of the way the world works. Unfortunately the church/religion for the most part has refused to update anything, even if there is scientific or logical proof. I find their close-mindedness quite infuriating.
I much prefer to live as a good person to the best of my abilities. Not only because we were raised that way, but it gives me a sense of purpose far beyond that golden ticket to heaven I would get for pouring money into the church coffers. I’d rather speak my mind and risk going to hell than conform to a bunch of BS I don’t believe in anyway :-p
Well, it’s nice to see all that money we spent giving you both a religious education was so productive. I wish we’d saved it and gone to Tahiti.
I disagree that all churches are like that. There are actually churches out there that encourage education, thinking and healthy debates. Questioning is a good thing!
P.S. Judy, you should still go to Tahiti on one of your vacations. It’s wonderful!
I never said that I don’t think the education I received was good, nor that I don’t value the moral lessons that I learned. I think they are important, which is why my kids also go to Catholic school. I will not, however, shove religion down their throats, and when they do come to an age where they are able to make their own informed decision about their beliefs, I will not berate them for it if they choose not to believe the same things that I do. I also do not condemn people who do choose to believe in things that I don’t necessarily agree with, because I really don’t think that is my place to judge, plus it’s just not my style. Freedom of religious belief is something that has been fought over forever, and as long as no one gets in my face about it, they can do whatever they want. I don’t have to agree with everyone, or believe in something just because I am told to.
Besides mom, you should rejoice in the fact that the education that you so graciously paid for also taught us how to question and think critically, which is sadly a skill that many kids these days do not possess, instead looking for the ‘answers’ that they need to regurgitate to the teacher to pass. :D
I agree; without a good education we couldn’t even have discussions like this one. Mom, you did a great job!
Jeff, your questions are almost a mirror of ones I have struggled with for a long time. It is true that there are inconsistencies in the Bible. Example: the story of Genesis has two timelines for Creation. Do we accept Genesis as literal truth or as an explanation that, regardless of the method of creation, God had a hand in it? Can we take this approach of using our own interpretations of scripture? Where is the line drawn on this slippery slope? As the Bible is the written Word of God, it should by definition be able to stand any scrutiny to which we may subject it. I, also, refuse to believe that God would condemn us to suffering for reasoning.
However, there is a major misconception that I see here. First, God does not send people to Hell. We are granted free will so we can choose. There is ONLY ONE path to Heaven mentioned in the Bible and that is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. No amount of good works alone can save anyone, as “All have fallen short of the glory of God.” The standard for behavior is “perfect,” i.e., Jesus, and no one else can achieve that. Anyone who tells you differently, that it depends on ceremony, monetary contributions, etc. has some agenda to push.
As I have traveled my spiritual journey, I have really come to realize that the Catholic faith has a huge focus on the wrong details. I will not go into it here, but just watch the Passion of the Christ. For Catholics, Jesus is still suffering on the cross. There is a 30 second blurb at the end showing Him afterwards. The focus on suffering for sins is wrong. As I said before, no amount of suffering can absolve us of our sins. There is only the blood of Christ.
After I met Megan, I started going to mass with her at a Baptist church and I have learned an incredible amount. My advice to you is to get away from Catholicism for a while and go try out some different churches. I went through many years of catechism, etc. (I was raised Catholic myself) so I know where you are coming from. Don’t give up, there is an incredibly rich life to be had here and it would be a shame to miss it because a one-sided education has left you felling empty and unfulfilled.
Jeff, did you feel your education was one-sided, as Eric concludes? I thought it taught you to be open-minded. Your family certainly did not teach you to be closed-minded. I think there are many paths to the truth, including non-Christian religions, and I don’t think you’ve heard us say anything other than that.
Eric, I agree with you that people have free will. It goes along with an acceptance of personal responsibility, an ethic that I can’t separate myself from. If one’s acceptance into Heaven is contingent upon acceptance of the message of Jesus, namely that we should love and accept our neighbors and treat them accordingly, then I believe you already have my answer. If one’s acceptance into Heaven is contingent upon acceptance of Jesus Christ as God, then that sounds less like a choice and more like an ultimatum. “If you believe that I’m God you will go to Heaven, but if you don’t…” That sounds suspiciously like a false dichotomy, and I don’t think that was the original intent. Perhaps the message was more that if you don’t treat others well and you don’t love your neighbor, you will sow unhappiness. That’s a message I would agree with.
Furthermore, what do you think happens to those who never have the opportunity to choose to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? On one hand, you would think that innocent children should be able to get away scot-free. What about Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and yes, your Atheists too? Most of the people of said religions (along with Christianity) are de facto members; they follow the traditions of their parents. And I would argue that most of them are decent people, just like most Christians are decent people. I would hope we’d all be able to sit around the campfire at the end of everything and share in each other’s company, regardless of our backgrounds or even our prior mistakes. I certainly wouldn’t leave anyone out.
In regards to your experience with the Baptist church, I think that’s the draw of religion, its sense of belonging and in the best cases a real community. That group of people can do some really good things, like set up food drives and helping people get back on their feet. There’s a danger though in regards to how people outside the community are treated, and whether the community is exclusive. How do you react when you invite someone to join you, but they don’t? Are they still invited into your house as brothers and sisters? Simply tolerated? Ignored? Shunned? Pitied? Do you think that there’s something wrong with their head? It’s easy to think in binary terms: WE think this way, but THEY think that way. I think there’s something fundamentally dangerous about that way of thinking.
Mom, in response to your question I would say that within our family we were certainly open-minded. You’ve taught me to be tolerant and accepting of other beliefs. I can’t find any fault there. As for the schools, at first glance they were open-minded. But often in several of the “religion” classes, points were presented as absolute fact which were actually just religious beliefs presented fervently. To an extent I guess that a private school run by a church is designed to indoctrinate kids in that belief system, but I can’t help but feel there’s something wrong with ramming beliefs down a young child’s throat when he doesn’t have the experience, confidence, or debating skills necessary to question what he’s being told. This approach relies on social inertia, the idea that people will keep doing the same thing until they question things, at which point they’ll have to expend considerable effort to stop doing what they’ve been doing. At that point many people simply continue to go through the motions because that’s what they’ve always done, even though they might not believe it on the inside. Or worse, they might keep doing it from a sense of guilt or fear– not just fear of a nebulous deity but of a more immediate community’s reactions to someone who bucks the status quo. That’s awful.
And I don’t want to say that other beliefs were actively stifled, but it’s pretty hard to say they were encouraged in an environment trying its hardest to convince you that one specific idea is the ONLY CORRECT one. That sort of idealism doesn’t lend itself well to open-mindedness. I don’t recall any other students ever openly talking about their religion or lack thereof. It wasn’t suppressed in some ham-handed fashion, it was more insidious than that. It simply wasn’t encouraged. We didn’t, for example, have a comparative religions class offered, or even seriously talk about other religions in class, even though I would have gotten much more out of a class like that than a class called “Social Justice” or “Morality”. Even in high school we never had a Buddhist monk or a Jewish rabbi or a Muslim imam speak to us, because a lot of the staff (and probably quite a few of the parents) would have seen it as counterproductive or even dangerous. And I guess it would be, from the perspective of indoctrinating children in a single belief system.
I haven’t commented prior to now because I think that this is totally the wrong format in which to be having this discussion. That being said, I just have to share my consternation with the fact that although all three of us, technically speaking, had the same education, we certainly took vastly different things from it. You might argue that we all choose to hear what we want to hear, and I can agree to that; however, MY teachers encouraged open discussions of/with others of other faiths, my theology class in high school taught us the history and general beliefs of many common religions (even offering extra credit for attending their services and sharing our experiences…they didn’t “fear” showing us other paths), and the priests I talked to personally encouraged questioning my faith and my religion as a means of personal and spiritual growth. Do I agree with all the doctrines of my “formal” religion (and some of the more “literal” teachers I had)? Absolutely not, and I have never pretended to. Did my faith offer the sacrament (Confirmation) by which I was given the opportunity, of my own free will, to re-affirm or deny my faith? ABSOLUTELY. Although baptized a Catholic at 1 week old, was I given the opportunity to “opt out” and not continue with my religion at the time of Confirmation? THAT WAS WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT. I chose to develop my faith as a Catholic. My relationship with God is one I continue to develop. Although a realist and a scientist, I can accept that faith goes beyond fact.
I would be more than happy to discuss in another format my personal beliefs and sense of faith. I just find it sad to see my brother and sister condemning their education in one sentence and crediting it with their ability to reason in the next. Make up your mind. Was it narrow-minded or did it make you open-minded? You can’t have it both ways.
Jesus said “No one can come to the Father except through Me.” This means accepting that no action of yours can possibly redeem you for all the sin in your life but also recognizing that you don’t have to (see Ephesians 2:8). It is already done. Jesus suffered and died for everyone. Accepting this fact is all that is necessary for salvation. Not accepting it is only saying that you agree to take the punishment for your own sins. That’s it. No one can say “Your sin is worse than mine” because all sins are equal in God’s eyes. The Bible says “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” As far as the fairness of judgment on people who have not had the opportunity to know Christ, I can only say that I have heard it said that everyone has a chance to know Jesus at some point in their life; however, I have no specific scriptures to back this up.
I can go even further than though. People, myself included, always seem to think that salvation is a matter of “If I do the right thing, God will beam me up out of here.” However, reading through the New Testament you will discover that that is not our purpose at all. Our purpose is to bring the Kingdom of God down here to earth by our actions (“Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven”).
Whenever you see a church or group ostracize someone, it is a failing of human nature, not of God. The Bible is very clear on one point: one cannot judge another person. You are responsible for your own actions ONLY. You can try to reason with someone else but you cannot judge them. A person who thinks tattoos are wrong can’t say to their inked-up friend “You are defiling your body.” That person can only choose to not get a tattoo of their own.
The draw of organized religion is not only the sense of community but the insights you gain from being around other people. Think about it: you can learn everything you need for a degree by only reading textbooks. You will likely do much better if you have some other interaction, but it is not necessary. You might miss out on insights. etc.
I am telling you this from personal experience: the Catholic church I attended for the first 15 years of my life did seem to have some of that exclusivity complex to it and it made me feel sour too. That is why I encourage you to try out different churches to find one that truly embraces Christ’s message of tolerance. Read through their texts and see if they measure up to the tests of logic. If God knew you in the womb before you were born, He surely knew about your skeptical nature :)
Just for the record, I never intended to come off as condemning my education Tracy. I just said that I don’t necessarily believe in the religious aspect of it, and I am certainly entitled to that opinion. If I felt so strongly that it had been a horrible experience, I would never send my kids to Catholic school… I have the power to put them in public school, and yeah, sure it would be cheaper, easier and less complicated. I value the education I received because it helped make me the person I am today. And if that person isn’t a law-abiding Catholic, then so be it. I’m still a good person, with good moral and work ethics, instilled in part by school and more from our parents.
And as far as this not being the proper venue to discuss such things… I have to disagree. I would much rather do it here, where i can take the time to think about what I want to say and re-read the responses, than have a heated discussion over the dinner table where you know resentment and anger would come into it and feelings would get hurt. Right now… I’m not angry. I don’t resent the education that I had. And at least we are having an adult conversation about it… which is more than a lot of people do. I know that you and mom and Jeff and I will likely never agree on this subject… and that’s fine with me. I can understand what you say and why you say it and still not subscribe to what you believe. That’s what makes us different people, that and the fact that the circumstances were different for both of us, even in the few short years in school we were apart. And drastically different from when Jeff went to school… girl altar servers, the horror! :-p Your conviction is part of what I love about you Tracy. And maybe even envy… you’ve ALWAYS known what you believed in. :)
I do have to say, however, that being confirmed while in 8th grade, as I was, there was no option to ‘opt out’ as you put it. I do not think that a 13-year old is mature enough to make that kind of decision, especially when they haven’t been exposed to ANYTHING at all aside from what was being presented in school and at home. At that point in time, it simply wasn’t an option to not get confirmed, and to be honest most of us didn’t even understand what it was about. Mom and Dad wanted it. School wanted it. Apparently God wanted it. I was never asked if I did. Thankfully, things have changed somewhat, and now they wait until you are older before doing it. So maybe the church can learn after all? :-p
I have come across this thread, and after reading it, I have decided to pray with my whole heart for Jeff’s soul. I will lay this down at the feet of Jesus and pray earnestly to the Sacred Mother Mary that through her holy intercession he may find the peace he needs to live fully the Christian message. Jesus, only through you, and your holy mother, can any be saved! Amen!
I was going to post a response, but Jen said it better than I could have.
Eric, I admire your faith, but I’m not sure if I could ever share it in the same way. Regardless, the most shining examples of Christianity I’ve seen have been those simply behaving in a manner that would make Jesus proud. Ironically, some of these people attend services every week, some don’t attend services, and a few are self-proclaimed atheists or agnostics. (Maybe some people are Christian in the truest sense without knowing it? A controversial idea to be sure.) In regards to insights from organized religion, I’ve found that I get more insights from a diverse group of people having an open discussion, rather than a single leader expressing his viewpoint. Really, what’s there to talk about? Ostensibly the people in a church all believe the same thing. One opinion is a start, but real insight comes from the friction of opinions, not necessarily with the goal of convincing one another. The best example of what I think a good “church” would be is a small group of people I knew who met once a week at a member’s house and just talked about things. It was an open exchange of viewpoints, with one person acting as a moderator so that we didn’t step on each other’s toes. Sometimes the topic was a commonly accepted aspect of God, sometimes it was just free discussion about things in our lives. Since we all had different backgrounds and different ideas about beliefs, we had to analyze our assumptions and rethink them. It was much like Kairos but without the Catholic Church overtones. We had some fascinating conversations, and I always came away feeling like I learned something.
And I think I know who the last poster is, you ninja poster you! :)
May the force be with you!
Jeff, you are correct when you say that the best examples of Christianity are those where people demonstrate love, compassion, etc. Christ tells us that “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another (John 13:35).”
Let me share my previous experience in the church where I went while I was growing up. During Mass, there was the First reading, the Second reading, and the Gospel reading. The first two Readings were from the Old Testament, the Gospel was from the New Testament. The readings were surrounded by ritualistic prayers, standing up/sitting down, etc. It all seemed very pre-canned to me.
Fast forward to the present. I go to church at 9:15 AM. The preacher speaks on a topic, almost always one that is important in my daily life, citing the Bible to back up any claims. The advantage here is that you are hearing teaching from someone who knows what they are talking about and can read along with the Scripture. “Aha!” you say, “You are still only getting the opinion of one person, no matter how informed they think they are!” Again, you would be correct. This is where the second and crucial part of the equation comes in.
The second part of the equation is small group discussion, sometimes know as Bible fellowship. Megan and I are in a class we attend at 10:45 AM with about 20 or so other couples. We will take a topic, along with verses from the Bible that deal with the topic, and have a discussion about it. This is the step that allows you to grow in your faith. Going to church is always good, Bible fellowships are more of an “advanced” education where you can grow your faith.
It is not always true that all people at a church believe the same thing. For example, here is a hot topic that came up a few weeks ago: the topic of women needing to cover their hair while praying. See I Corinthians 11:4-6 for a passage that seems to be in favor of the practice. However, also see next passage I Corinthians 11:16. Paul writes that it is not a big deal, that no churches have a practice such as women covering their heads. Which one is right? As I said in one of my previous posts, you are responsible for your own actions, only. If you think it is wrong, cover your hair, but you cannot judge your friend who does not feel the same way (and vice versa). It is through small groups that discussions can be had and viewpoints expressed. It also help to have someone who can tell you a little about the context in which a verse might have been written. What was happening at the church in Corinth at the time?
I guess what I am getting at here is that it is possible to find a church where you can grow in your faith by further understanding of the ways of God. This understanding can only be gained from reasonable discussions, never from close-mindedness. That is why I say to you that you need to look around for a better church before you abandon Christianity because of bad experiences. I have learned a lot about the ways of God and I know you will too if you will give it a chance.
Dude! Let it go! He won’t build an ark without consulting you first.
I share Jeff’s sentiments completely and I’d encourage anyone interested in an expanded discussion and rational explanation of this sort of thing to check out two great books, “The End of Faith” by Sam Harris, and “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins.